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#13228361 May 04, 2017 at 10:25 PM
4 Posts
Greetings folks!

I thought to ask you guys a question and perhaps we could have a discussion about this without feelings getting hurt (this might be a somewhat touchy subject) it is basically about using gameplay mechanics such as PvP to solve in-character (roleplay) conflicts without emote-fighting.

As a RP-PvPer my preferred style of solving in-character conflicts is what you guys might have imagined is by using the gameplay mechanics (such as PvP) and the best way to solve this would be to agree upon a method of style in order to continue the RP.

But what if any method couldn’t be agreed upon? As you guys can imagine in a game like Ashes of Creation your RP does in fact carry a lot more weight than it would than in other MMOs like in WoW or ESO (which you can basically waltz out from a scene without a care) but doing so in Ashes of Creation might actually more or less damage your character’s reputation.


In Ashes of Creation – Your ability as a player to portray the character which you intent to RP will be important.
I believe that immersion is an important factor in RP, without immersion RP feels empty and without purpose, at least that’s my opinion.

Let’s say for example that there’s two mercenaries - one of them uses emote fighting and the other uses gameplay mechanics for their RP – In my opinion ONLY one of them is a true mercenary and the other one is not, now you guys might consider this harsh and completely out of line of what RP is but in Ashes of Creation RP shouldn’t be separated from gameplay.
#13228397 May 04, 2017 at 11:04 PM · Edited 2 years ago
30 Posts
#13228361 Fjoll wrote:

Greetings folks!

I thought to ask you guys a question and perhaps we could have a discussion about this without feelings getting hurt (this might be a somewhat touchy subject) it is basically about using gameplay mechanics such as PvP to solve in-character (roleplay) conflicts without emote-fighting.

As a RP-PvPer my preferred style of solving in-character conflicts is what you guys might have imagined is by using the gameplay mechanics (such as PvP) and the best way to solve this would be to agree upon a method of style in order to continue the RP.

But what if any method couldn’t be agreed upon? As you guys can imagine in a game like Ashes of Creation your RP does in fact carry a lot more weight than it would than in other MMOs like in WoW or ESO (which you can basically waltz out from a scene without a care) but doing so in Ashes of Creation might actually more or less damage your character’s reputation.


In Ashes of Creation – Your ability as a player to portray the character which you intent to RP will be important.
I believe that immersion is an important factor in RP, without immersion RP feels empty and without purpose, at least that’s my opinion.

Let’s say for example that there’s two mercenaries - one of them uses emote fighting and the other uses gameplay mechanics for their RP – In my opinion ONLY one of them is a true mercenary and the other one is not, now you guys might consider this harsh and completely out of line of what RP is but in Ashes of Creation RP shouldn’t be separated from gameplay.

Here's the thing, with situations like this whoever lands the first hit by default should listen to what the other characters player wants to do. So if he wants to write it out, write it out. This should stop conflict in its tracks and make it fair to the other player, not saying this is a thing that would work in every situation (like if you do a gauntlet throw and challenge a person) especially if someone is under-leveled and low geared with no skill. At that point you'd have to roll dice or fight by typing, unless you want to drop the RP entirely which is a really rude thing to do. I understand your point. I am an RP/PVPer too. I'd love to solve all conflicts with the game mechanics, but I like to abide to the other players preference in order to give them a much better experience. I will say this, if you get in an argument please work it out in a civil way. We do not want to divide the community between RP/PVPers and RP/Typer/Dicer.
#13228412 May 04, 2017 at 11:30 PM
4 Posts
I can only speak about myself but anyone wishes to emote fight me in-game will become severely disappointed - I have no intention whatsoever to emote fight, however it don't mean that I will reject RP from people who prefer other styles.

I can say at this moment, if someone wants to portray as a guard or a warrior (whatever) then I would prefer it to be backed up by gameplay.

Now with that said, what would divide the community would be rules which a certain group of people would believe they can enforce and that's something that would definitely divide and break the RP community, as I said - I have all intention to still RP with people who prefer emote fighting.
#13228437 May 05, 2017 at 12:02 AM
30 Posts
#13228412 Fjoll wrote:

I can only speak about myself but anyone wishes to emote fight me in-game will become severely disappointed - I have no intention whatsoever to emote fight, however it don't mean that I will reject RP from people who prefer other styles.

I can say at this moment, if someone wants to portray as a guard or a warrior (whatever) then I would prefer it to be backed up by gameplay.

Now with that said, what would divide the community would be rules which a certain group of people would believe they can enforce and that's something that would definitely divide and break the RP community, as I said - I have all intention to still RP with people who prefer emote fighting.

What I meant by division of the two is, if people get into enough arguments about it may cause a whole lot of issues. I do not wish for that to happen, but do as you will and do what you must. Whatever your playstyle is, do it and rock it. But there will be tension and the "uh-oh" feel if no one wants to give up their type of RP.
#13228587 May 05, 2017 at 02:36 AM
9 Posts
I think this could be solved very easily. Think about it. Lets say that one of the rp guilds make an rp pvp tournament. The story is that the leader need a right hand, who can manage everyday problems while he busy with world-wide diplomacy. Because this guild is military how can they better decide this, than making an 1v1 tournament, where the best duelist wins. See, in this cenario an in-game pvp is better than the dice roll like system. This can be also applied to city sieges and so on if you back up it with rp story. However lets say, that this guild make an event, where a small group of people need to cut trough the woods in order to retrieve something, but a bunch of bandit pops up. These bandits could be either players or just imagined, but in this cenario, you cant force in-game pvp on guild members because they probably came for the sake of the Rp and not the pvp aspect of the game, and if they are not good at pvp they will not enjoy the game. You either need to find/create a guild where the rp and pvp are almost the same, or you need to work together and make both type of events. Plus you dont need to participate in every event, so you can avoid the tradicional dice roll rp.
#13228598 May 05, 2017 at 02:44 AM · Edited 2 years ago
30 Posts
#13228587 Atusz97 wrote:

I think this could be solved very easily. Think about it. Lets say that one of the rp guilds make an rp pvp tournament. The story is that the leader need a right hand, who can manage everyday problems while he busy with world-wide diplomacy. Because this guild is military how can they better decide this, than making an 1v1 tournament, where the best duelist wins. See, in this cenario an in-game pvp is better than the dice roll like system. This can be also applied to city sieges and so on if you back up it with rp story. However lets say, that this guild make an event, where a small group of people need to cut trough the woods in order to retrieve something, but a bunch of bandit pops up. These bandits could be either players or just imagined, but in this cenario, you cant force in-game pvp on guild members because they probably came for the sake of the Rp and not the pvp aspect of the game, and if they are not good at pvp they will not enjoy the game. You either need to find/create a guild where the rp and pvp are almost the same, or you need to work together and make both type of events. Plus you dont need to participate in every event, so you can avoid the tradicional dice roll rp.

The problem with that is if we made PVP only fight events and then RP only fight events that may cause confusion, or entirely split people up. We need a balance, and people need to accept in RP you most likely will be out of your comfort zone in fight scenarios. RP/PVPers and RP/Typer/Dicers will encounter each other, no matter what happens. We don't want a split in the community, and I'd like for both types of RPers to work together instead of getting into an OOC hissy fit because things aren't going their way. I think yes, maybe having different kinds of events that are PVP related or just Type/Dice sort of thing is good. But for tournaments, that should be a PVP thing. Monster hunting should be a RP written out scenario, stuff like that, but here's another thing: Non-PVPers will miss out on the tournament fun, but with AOC it seems like PVP maybe of some interest to RPers, it maybe something we've never seen before so we can't determine if most RPers will type/dice or most will PVP out fighting. We just have to ask the community what they feel like the events should be, perhaps hold up stroll poles. As I said before, sometimes you will be out of your comfort zone. It just depends on what kind of events you go to.
#13228629 May 05, 2017 at 03:17 AM
9 Posts
You are totally right. I personally, better like the type/roll kind of "pvp" in rp, because it gives the extra flavour of luck which can be very epic or hillarious. Nothing can be better, when you babbling about your superiority, but after that, you stab yourself in the leg because you rolled 1. I like the RP because this kind of situation, and I am not irritated by the fact that in some cases maybe my character will be the subject of fun. Bad stuff happens, plus if you don't take it too seriously, you can enjoy these moments aswell. For example one time I was training new recruits in RP. I told them all about combat and stuff but when I needed to show them in practice, my rolls were so bad, that a simple wolf almost killed me. Just think about it, a military leader who have seen hundreds of battles, are struggling for his life in front of 10 newbie in the middle of the woods, while crying for mercy. We laughed our ass off. Man, that was a good game :D
#13229452 May 05, 2017 at 01:13 PM
30 Posts
#13228629 Atusz97 wrote:

You are totally right. I personally, better like the type/roll kind of "pvp" in rp, because it gives the extra flavour of luck which can be very epic or hillarious. Nothing can be better, when you babbling about your superiority, but after that, you stab yourself in the leg because you rolled 1. I like the RP because this kind of situation, and I am not irritated by the fact that in some cases maybe my character will be the subject of fun. Bad stuff happens, plus if you don't take it too seriously, you can enjoy these moments aswell. For example one time I was training new recruits in RP. I told them all about combat and stuff but when I needed to show them in practice, my rolls were so bad, that a simple wolf almost killed me. Just think about it, a military leader who have seen hundreds of battles, are struggling for his life in front of 10 newbie in the middle of the woods, while crying for mercy. We laughed our ass off. Man, that was a good game :D

I don't really dice in cases like that, where I know my character would be perfectly able to do things, that I just PVE or type out, but I understand how one would like that.
#13229536 May 05, 2017 at 02:02 PM
AoCRP Admin
59 Posts
My take on PVP in RP goes like this: I am a RP-PVPer that comes from games such as Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2, where -everything- about your character (skills, attributes, weapon damage, etc.) was quantified and could be rolled for. To that point, we RPed out character conflict and rolled opposing checks. If there was true combative RP, we used the in-game hostile flag and pvp system because it was the exact same as rolling. Of course there were massive penalties if you RP'ed as a badass but did not have the skills through levels to back it up, but then also because everyone understood that, they made sure to grind up a bit before trying to stick up to the biggest sword in town. It was the greatest possible combination of game mechanics and RP.

Now, in MMOs this will never likely be the case. Because of this, there will be proper times to write and roll (like one on one or small group fighting during a minor scuffle) and times to use the game's system (IC PVP tournaments). I will be changing my style of "fighting RP" to fit the scenario and players I am playing with, but also I do not believe in the slightest that I will trust plain emoting to determine the winners of combat tournaments, Sieges, and guild wars. It would become tedious and waste several hours trying to determine "who can RP fight better", which rarely seems to end in anyone feeling OK with the result except the winner. That is not to say that I think this community wouldn't be able to handle it, but I have yet to see a group that can in the 12 years of RP experience I have.

I believe I'll conclude with this suggestion: No matter how angry/violent/oppressive your character is, make it known what style you prefer, and work things out like adults OOC -before- the IC conflict reaches the point of no return and PVP becomes an issue. If everyone can agree to basic forms of communicating intent on an OOC level, things will be fine, but I do not at all want to see that people are ICly trash-talking others to the point of conflict and then backing out. It would be totally disrespectful to everyone involved. Not saying that this community will commit such a sin, but I do want to get my preference known. Use your judgement.
#13229550 May 05, 2017 at 02:07 PM
30 Posts
#13229536 Halgrave wrote:

My take on PVP in RP goes like this: I am a RP-PVPer that comes from games such as Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2, where -everything- about your character (skills, attributes, weapon damage, etc.) was quantified and could be rolled for. To that point, we RPed out character conflict and rolled opposing checks. If there was true combative RP, we used the in-game hostile flag and pvp system because it was the exact same as rolling. Of course there were massive penalties if you RP'ed as a badass but did not have the skills through levels to back it up, but then also because everyone understood that, they made sure to grind up a bit before trying to stick up to the biggest sword in town. It was the greatest possible combination of game mechanics and RP.

Now, in MMOs this will never likely be the case. Because of this, there will be proper times to write and roll (like one on one or small group fighting during a minor scuffle) and times to use the game's system (IC PVP tournaments). I will be changing my style of "fighting RP" to fit the scenario and players I am playing with, but also I do not believe in the slightest that I will trust plain emoting to determine the winners of combat tournaments, Sieges, and guild wars. It would become tedious and waste several hours trying to determine "who can RP fight better", which rarely seems to end in anyone feeling OK with the result except the winner. That is not to say that I think this community wouldn't be able to handle it, but I have yet to see a group that can in the 12 years of RP experience I have.

I believe I'll conclude with this suggestion: No matter how angry/violent/oppressive your character is, make it known what style you prefer, and work things out like adults OOC -before- the IC conflict reaches the point of no return and PVP becomes an issue. If everyone can agree to basic forms of communicating intent on an OOC level, things will be fine, but I do not at all want to see that people are ICly trash-talking others to the point of conflict and then backing out. It would be totally disrespectful to everyone involved. Not saying that this community will commit such a sin, but I do want to get my preference known. Use your judgement.

He is very right. Like I said before, you will be out of your comfort zone at times.
#13229588 May 05, 2017 at 02:26 PM
43 Posts
Here's my thoughts on this.

IC fighting should be used to advance/end a plot. To that end, I've also found it best to have a general idea of who wins in that IC fight before engaging in it, so that you don't end up with one of two situations (This is for pure RP fights):

1) The fight goes on forever because one or the other refuses to lose
2) One player godmods/twinks their power

A good rule of thumb to play by is the "No touching" rule; Basically, that if I want to physically interact with your character, it's a good idea to ask for OOC permission. Whether that's a kiss, a punch, an assassination attempt, etc.

I would like to think that our goal as authors is to tell the best, most cohesive story that we can.

To that end, I think it's also best to not bring OOC mechanics into IC fights, as there are any number of factors that can affect the outcome of that PvP fight; Perhaps my character is a pacifist merchant, but her class and skill are on the bleeding edge of the server's power curve; She's getting into a fight with a Level 10 Fighter, but the character itself holds significantly more power and skill; There's an innate disparity here, and while it's definitely an outlier of a situation, I don't feel that it's fair for people that are more focused on telling their characters' story than levelling them to end up in a situation where their character is put into a situation that's disingenuous to the story.

However, I do think that there are situations where IC PvP combat IS warranted:

1) When both parties are interested

2) When the outcome doesn't affect the characters in a noticeable way

3) In the interests of time/moving a plot along

All that said, these are my own personal theories. It is ultimately going to be up to the parties involved to decide what works best for their RP - I don't think that there will be anything positive that comes out of trying to enforce one standard or another on the community here.


“You may tell a tale that takes up residence in someone's soul, becomes their blood and self and purpose. That tale will move them and drive them and who knows that they might do because of it, because of your words. That is your role, your gift.”

-Erin Morgenstern, The Night Circus

#13229665 May 05, 2017 at 03:07 PM
4 Posts
As someone who views gameplay as part of RP, I see even the most random things as part of my character's story. In my opinion RP is not all about narrative-written but what also happens on the screen.

If I have a character who is lvl 50 fighter but is a farmer, then I will actually represent this character in PvP to lack the skills to put up a proper fight in both of gear/equipment and style of PvP, after all this character is not a fighter but a farmer who lacks any sort of training.

But sure, what about the level 10 fighter who is supposed to be a good fighter? Well in my most honest opinion this level 10 fighter IS not good at anything because this character can't be played in a such manner that would represent such in gameplay but this is of course nothing more but my opinion.
#13230143 May 05, 2017 at 09:25 PM
43 Posts
#13229665 Fjoll wrote:

As someone who views gameplay as part of RP, I see even the most random things as part of my character's story. In my opinion RP is not all about narrative-written but what also happens on the screen.

If I have a character who is lvl 50 fighter but is a farmer, then I will actually represent this character in PvP to lack the skills to put up a proper fight in both of gear/equipment and style of PvP, after all this character is not a fighter but a farmer who lacks any sort of training.

But sure, what about the level 10 fighter who is supposed to be a good fighter? Well in my most honest opinion this level 10 fighter IS not good at anything because this character can't be played in a such manner that would represent such in gameplay but this is of course nothing more but my opinion.



This is a fundamental split that I've seen occur time and time again in MMO roleplay communities; I think a lot of it has to do with the age of roleplayers, or when they first got involved.

For me, it was on text-based games (MUDs/MUSHes) where the 'graphics' were one of sixteen colors (256 is now supported) for the text. I don't mean this to sound like a 'get off my lawn' sort of thing, but for _me_, RP has traditionally been about the characters' story and journey and anything you're doing with them /should/ be written out.

I also realize that the definition of 'roleplay' has changed dramatically in recent years; I think it's probably best for me to define roleplay as to how I view it:

Roleplay: Two or more authors collaborating in a real-time/round-robin setting to tell a single, cohesive narrative, most often done so either fully improvised or with minimal scripting.

I think that over the past few years somehow the definition of what constitutes 'RP' has been muddied to something more akin to... 'Playing the video game as if I am my character,' which I would argue is a valid assessment of a lot of franchises (Elder Scrolls, Mass Effect, Fallout, Dark Souls, etc), but isn't necessarily what I would call 'collaborative, real-time fiction writing.'

For me, as well, there's very little satisfaction in a half-second animation of Character A swinging a sword at Characer B; Instead, I find that a good, solid description of the action is far more intriguing and paints a much more vibrant picture:

The blade of John's sword warmed ever so slightly, nearly imperceptibly, as it's dull, un-razored edge hacked into the sinew and gristle of Not John's upper left shoulder. A gurgling spray of rose-dyed fluid exploded in a brilliant bloom, only to be buried beneath the earthen browns of Not John's tunic. Not John struggled against the fouled steel, wrapping his fingers around it with white knuckles turned pink from the thick sloughs of arterial spray that dripped down his tunic in crimson bands like an insultingly slow summer sun refusing to give up the horizon.

Anyway, just my two cents on the subject. Let's try to at least keep a community non-rule-rule of 1) asking the person before initiating combat, and 2) hashing out how things are going to be handled before hand, in such a way that everyone's chill with the results (for instance, I don't mind hand-waving a big long scene in lieu of a PvP fight).


“You may tell a tale that takes up residence in someone's soul, becomes their blood and self and purpose. That tale will move them and drive them and who knows that they might do because of it, because of your words. That is your role, your gift.”

-Erin Morgenstern, The Night Circus

#13230165 May 05, 2017 at 09:58 PM
4 Posts
Meh. You wouldn't notice any kind of difference if we were to RP other than I'd go for PvP when it comes to IC conflicts. I have no problems with you or anyone who wishes to emote fight (within your representative groups) and that I'm not expected by default to do it because I don't enjoy it.

Depending on lore turns out to be, my friends have been thinking about a possible Orc clan who would seal alliances and whatnot by trials such as combat (using PvP) guild leader against guild leader - who wants to make an alliance with someone who is weaker?

Is this fair? Not for the level 20 fighter who is a guild leader for a "powerful" faction and who is supposed to be "strong". As I mentioned before I believe that RP goes beyond narrative writing, for me RP is also a part of the gameplay. The siege that sacked our city? That's part of my character's story, the battle which we either won or lost? That's also a part of my character's story - or the time when my character was part of a caravan (either is a trader of a guard) that's also part of my character's backstory and this comes from something as simple as gameplay.

#13230175 May 05, 2017 at 10:08 PM
AoCRP Admin
59 Posts
#13230165 Fjoll wrote:

Depending on lore turns out to be, my friends have been thinking about a possible Orc clan who would seal alliances and whatnot by trials such as combat (using PvP) guild leader against guild leader - who wants to make an alliance with someone who is weaker?



Well, lore notwithstanding why would a "stronger" person in PVP method of RP Fighting against your guild leader want to ally with someone who would not otherwise ally with someone weaker? But that's politics and a bunch of complicated details that would be off-topic for this thread.

Like I pushed for above, this is a community and either way we will all have to make compromises in -some form- for the sake of the community. Otherwise we end up with circles spread out that all disagree and kind of just grind our teeth when interacting with others. I'd like to avoid that, and the entire reason I am even commenting is that I noticed this particular word starting the reply to a perfectly reasonable discussion:

#13230165 Fjoll wrote:

Meh



Let's keep from dismissing the opinions of others like this please, if in fact this is meant to be a real discussion and not simply a declaration of "this is the way it will be". Thank you!
#13230179 May 05, 2017 at 10:16 PM
43 Posts
Either way, all of this is meant to be fun, and if whatever's happening isn't fun, then, y'know. Let's take a step back and figure out a way to make it fun. :)

I think that's all any of us are after. Just be cognizant of other people, and communicate your needs/desires/wants for a particular scene as needed.


“You may tell a tale that takes up residence in someone's soul, becomes their blood and self and purpose. That tale will move them and drive them and who knows that they might do because of it, because of your words. That is your role, your gift.”

-Erin Morgenstern, The Night Circus

#13230184 May 05, 2017 at 10:18 PM
30 Posts
I would like to hope in this community everyone can work together and try and form balances between different kinds of RP. We all want the same thing: story. It is THE most important aspect of an RPer, and most of the reason why people love RPing.
#13231201 May 06, 2017 at 02:16 PM
8 Posts
My point of view on this is pretty simple. If we are going to rp together, we will talk about it ooc and agree to something and then go for it. It can be whatever we end up deciding that works for both of us. It may differ depending on people, time of day, number involved etc.
In the end, we will agree on a way or just not rp it out etc
I don't mind if there's an event based on an rp method I don't like , because I'll either not go, or maybe I'll go and give it a try or just watch in case I change my mind. Either way, I'll find something to occupy me etc
I'm actually all for different types and methods as you never know what may shine in a particular situation. Variety is always good ~
"Coming back to where you started is not the same as never leaving." - Sir Terry Pratchett
#13231225 May 06, 2017 at 02:30 PM
30 Posts
#13231201 Rumze wrote:

My point of view on this is pretty simple. If we are going to rp together, we will talk about it ooc and agree to something and then go for it. It can be whatever we end up deciding that works for both of us. It may differ depending on people, time of day, number involved etc.
In the end, we will agree on a way or just not rp it out etc
I don't mind if there's an event based on an rp method I don't like , because I'll either not go, or maybe I'll go and give it a try or just watch in case I change my mind. Either way, I'll find something to occupy me etc
I'm actually all for different types and methods as you never know what may shine in a particular situation. Variety is always good ~

Very well said. I totally agree.
#13231739 May 06, 2017 at 10:28 PM
11 Posts
Normally I prefer emote combat to actual fighting with game mechanics mainly due to the fact that most of the games I was currently invested in had a rigorous gear curve (Rift, and WoW specifically.) . As a student, with a part time job in most cases, I would only have enough time to really invest in one aspect of the game and I would focus on writing and Roleplaying in the world.

I worked on systems for roll combat for events in GW2, I would moderate some conflicts and as a guild leader I knew when to show restraint and what was truly viable within the spectrum of my character's abilities. You can make it fairly balanced.

As for applying it in Ashes; After hearing Steven talk a bit about how gear will be earned, I'm more relieved that it isn't going to be such a grind fest or totally one sided. I will definitely be more willing to actually use in-game combat to settle disputes.